IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

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bruno994
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby bruno994 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:09 pm

Personally the new scoring system that the TGCBCA was trying to implement was flawed in more ways than one, and don't even get me started on the subject of trained judges...I'm no trained judge and wasn't before I started comp cooking 4 years ago, but I can tell you good BBQ from bad. Don't need a badge to know that ("We don't need no stinking badges!") When the meat samples on a given table will be judged against the merits of the other samples, you have it wrong from the start. Each entry should be judged as if it is the only one on the table. To say that since you gave sample A a score of 10, that no other sample you try can get a 10 also is flawed. But I can't really complain because I never cooked under those rules. Now a change where the IBCA could post where you ranked from top to bottom would be nice, the IBCA does recognize those that made the final tables, so you can draw a conclusion from the fact that if you didn't make final table, then you might have sucked just a bit..lol, but it could also just show that you were up against some tough teams. As far as wanting comment cards back from judges, unless the head judges make them mandatory for any scores given of 5, 6, 7 or less, then you really won't see many of those cards make it back to you. Competition cooking has a learning curve, shorten it by shadowing someone or take a class, don't rely on what your family says or how many ribbons you bring home.
I am hopeful this merger will only strengthen the Texas BBQ scene and bring the fact that on any given weekend we have numerous events with a total of 400 plus teams cooking across this great state to national prominence that it deserves.
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby Okie Sawbones » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:33 pm

k.a.m. wrote:Personally I do not care what 6 to 8 judges thought my food tasted like on that particular day unless they were going to be judging me the next week. Comments are personal opinions that if not reigned in by a cook can have you chasing your tail from here to eternity we all know that what worked today may bust next weekend. Even trained judges do not have the same taste buds so their tastes can never get together. Now appearance and texture are real things that can be taught what to look for.


KCBS has implemented the use of Comment Cards at all contests. On your table, you will find comment cards for your use to advise the Cooks as to why you felt that their entry deserved the score given. The use of the comment card is strictly voluntary by you, the Judge. You are encouraged, if you desire, to provide information to the cooks which may help them understand the score you have given. Please do not use derogatory comments, constructive only. The comments should be of the type which will assist them in perfecting their art and skills. “I don’t like the taste!” does not help cooks improve their product.


IMHO, new cooks should ignore stuff like too savory or not savory enough, too sweet, not sweet enough. Focus on sincere comments e.g., "Your smoke overwhelmed the pork taste", "I like heat, but your entry was over the top hot", "Your brisket was delicious, but way too dry", "Your chicken was delicious, but it was wearing a rubber suit for skin", "Your ribs looked great and had good texture, but they were far too salty", "Your pulled pork was delicious, but mushy (overcooked)".

Any judging comment is subjective, but it is not hard to know when an entry is over the top with heat, smoke, salt, overcooking, or other flaws. You don't have to judge BBQ too long before you can tell when a cook had a fire problem.

There are judges, and then there are eaters. I don't understand why some BBQ societies do not realize this. Judges are on their own dime, trying to help with the betterment of the BBQ world. They don't get didilly squat for their efforts except condemnation from cooks. Eaters just show up and often do not have a clue, nor do they usually give a darn. Does that mean non-judges don't know chit from shineola? Not on your life. But if I am going to enter a contest as a cook, I want to see that all judges are certified. I'm not spending a lot of money to be judged by eaters. At least the certified judges have a basic concept of what BBQ is all about, and the old timers can help the young judges along after the score cards go in. This is why I don't judge IBCA.

In a perfect world, judges and cooks would thrive together. Unfortunately this is not so. I have some good friends who are cooks on the circuit. I've had other cooks turn their back on me after contests when I went out to chat with them. Their loss, not mine. I call BS on those who say anyone can judge BBQ CORRECTLY.
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Finatic
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby Finatic » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:06 am

Okie Sawbones wrote:
k.a.m. wrote:Personally I do not care what 6 to 8 judges thought my food tasted like on that particular day unless they were going to be judging me the next week. Comments are personal opinions that if not reigned in by a cook can have you chasing your tail from here to eternity we all know that what worked today may bust next weekend. Even trained judges do not have the same taste buds so their tastes can never get together. Now appearance and texture are real things that can be taught what to look for.


KCBS has implemented the use of Comment Cards at all contests. On your table, you will find comment cards for your use to advise the Cooks as to why you felt that their entry deserved the score given. The use of the comment card is strictly voluntary by you, the Judge. You are encouraged, if you desire, to provide information to the cooks which may help them understand the score you have given. Please do not use derogatory comments, constructive only. The comments should be of the type which will assist them in perfecting their art and skills. “I don’t like the taste!” does not help cooks improve their product.


IMHO, new cooks should ignore stuff like too savory or not savory enough, too sweet, not sweet enough. Focus on sincere comments e.g., "Your smoke overwhelmed the pork taste", "I like heat, but your entry was over the top hot", "Your brisket was delicious, but way too dry", "Your chicken was delicious, but it was wearing a rubber suit for skin", "Your ribs looked great and had good texture, but they were far too salty", "Your pulled pork was delicious, but mushy (overcooked)".

Any judging comment is subjective, but it is not hard to know when an entry is over the top with heat, smoke, salt, overcooking, or other flaws. You don't have to judge BBQ too long before you can tell when a cook had a fire problem.

There are judges, and then there are eaters. I don't understand why some BBQ societies do not realize this. Judges are on their own dime, trying to help with the betterment of the BBQ world. They don't get didilly squat for their efforts except condemnation from cooks. Eaters just show up and often do not have a clue, nor do they usually give a darn. Does that mean non-judges don't know chit from shineola? Not on your life. But if I am going to enter a contest as a cook, I want to see that all judges are certified. I'm not spending a lot of money to be judged by eaters. At least the certified judges have a basic concept of what BBQ is all about, and the old timers can help the young judges along after the score cards go in. This is why I don't judge IBCA.

In a perfect world, judges and cooks would thrive together. Unfortunately this is not so. I have some good friends who are cooks on the circuit. I've had other cooks turn their back on me after contests when I went out to chat with them. Their loss, not mine. I call BS on those who say anyone can judge BBQ CORRECTLY.

For me it’s not the inconsistency of the judges it’s the behind the scenes inside track cookers I have issues with- more specifically…cheaters. Last weekend I was cooking in a cook-off. After the awards ceremony was over all of the turn in boxes were set out on a table for all to open and view. Each turn in box was marked with the place it finished in (1-10) as well as the category (ribs, brisket, etc.). I opened the 2nd place rib box which happened to be on top. In this cook-off (like most cook-offs in central Texas) judges use a knife and fork to cut a piece off the rib and sample it. So it’s understood by most cooks ribs have to be tender to even make final table. The 2nd place rib box had ribs so tough there were serrated marks in the meat where a judge had to saw through it with a plastic knife! The guy standing next to me freaked and was infuriated. So was I but I've seen things like this happen all too often. Unfortunately once the awards and money are handed out there’s nothing that can be done.

I can handle the variation from one judge to the next when it comes to tasting my Q. I like the challenge. But I don’t like a particular cook/team inviting all their friends in to judge and cheating their way to the top. I believe certified judges would help (not solve but help) alleviate this problem. Having comment cards would be a bonus (I could easily sift through the non-pertinent information). I’d be all for paying a little extra money per category so certified judges could get a little something out of the deal.

Oh and the team that turned in that 2nd place rib entry- won grand… :dont:
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby k.a.m. » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:33 pm

What sanctioning body was this? IBCA does not keep the meat on final table anymore just the lids with the numbers.
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby bruno994 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:31 pm

Finatic, I'm not going to say that the bro n law system isn't used at certain events (unsanctioned, Go Texan, etc), but I would be shocked if this happened at an IBCA sanctioned event. I feel confident when I turn in my meats, that they are being given a fair shot against all the other entries.
Now as far as only cooking where there are certified judges...this is an elitist attitude in a sport where in the end good bbq wins no matter where in the country you are located or whether it is in the hands of badge carrying judges or Joe Q Public. Now I will agree with Okie in that if I was cooking KCBS, that I would want certified judges that know the tenderness marks required to be given proper scores, but for Texas BBQ (IBCA), certification is not needed, nor should it be. Texas has it right, the IBCA has it right or the growth would have stopped, but it just keeps on getting bigger. It is a meat contest only in Texas, not a salad and greenery show case, cook the best meat and more often than not, you will get your name called. There are minor changes that probably need to be addressed, but all in all it works. In no way am I knocking the KCBS or it's rules or judging, one day when I grow up, I'll cook a number of KCBS events as well, I'm just defending the current Texas system.
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby Finatic » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:41 pm

k.a.m. wrote:What sanctioning body was this? IBCA does not keep the meat on final table anymore just the lids with the numbers.

K.A.M. it was an LSBS event.
bruno994 wrote:Finatic, I'm not going to say that the bro n law system isn't used at certain events (unsanctioned, Go Texan, etc), but I would be shocked if this happened at an IBCA sanctioned event. I feel confident when I turn in my meats, that they are being given a fair shot against all the other entries.
Now as far as only cooking where there are certified judges...this is an elitist attitude in a sport where in the end good bbq wins no matter where in the country you are located or whether it is in the hands of badge carrying judges or Joe Q Public. Now I will agree with Okie in that if I was cooking KCBS, that I would want certified judges that know the tenderness marks required to be given proper scores, but for Texas BBQ (IBCA), certification is not needed, nor should it be. Texas has it right, the IBCA has it right or the growth would have stopped, but it just keeps on getting bigger. It is a meat contest only in Texas, not a salad and greenery show case, cook the best meat and more often than not, you will get your name called. There are minor changes that probably need to be addressed, but all in all it works. In no way am I knocking the KCBS or it's rules or judging, one day when I grow up, I'll cook a number of KCBS events as well, I'm just defending the current Texas system.

Bruno994- Re-read my post. If you still maintain my comments are elitist you and I'll just have to disagree on that comment.

This did occur in a sanctioned event. My point is their are more cheaters than some realize cooking in BBQ competitions. This is a big issue for honest cooks like myself. Every sanctioned event I've cooked in (including IBCA) comments are made about preventing cheating. I'm sure most cook-offs take steps to try to prevent it. But it still exists. There will never be a way to stop it all. But there are steps that may help prevent some of it.
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby bruno994 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:19 am

Finatic...I apologize, my "elitist" comment was aimed at Okie...LOL, he and I along with KAM have gone at it before on here about the certified judge BS, so no harm meant by it. Heck, I even for once agreed with Okie that with a KCBS event, I do agree that the judges need to be certified, simply due to the tenderness marks that need to be hit. I remember listening to Lance Moore and his Blog Talk Radio show last year after a KCBS event that was held out in Lubbock, where the certified judge % was around 50%, which made it tough for the KCBS cooks to determine whether they needed to cook to KCBS standards or IBCA standards, I can see this being a problem for sure.
As far as cheating, I'm sure it goes on, I would hope that it doesn't, but if there is $ involved, there will usually be some greedy bad apples in the mix. Now if the cheating was going on behind closed doors and the judges had something to do with it, then that is a whole other story. I stress once again, I have never cooked an IBCA event where I felt something fishy was going on, or didn't feel as if I got a fair shake. That doesn't mean I haven't left cook offs mad...lol, that's just my competitive nature.
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby Okie Sawbones » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:14 am

I'm used to being aimed at... :laughing7:
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Re: IBCA / TGCBCA Merger

Postby bruno994 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:04 am

Okie Sawbones wrote:I'm used to being aimed at... :laughing7:

Figured you could handle it...lol
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