New TGCBBQ scoring system

All other competition related questions or comments about recipes, techniques, and related topics.

Moderator: TBBQF Deputies

User avatar
bruno994
Cowboy
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:52 pm
Location: Buna, Texas
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby bruno994 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:51 pm

You are right Finatic, there are some that should never sit on a judging table for sure, but if those few hurt the scoring that much, then the cream would not always rise to the top and 90% of the time or more, the top teams at the start of the comp, are the top teams at awards. We've all had those days where we thought we turned in our best, only to get hemorrhoids at awards, it happens....was it bad judging or was it everyone else just flat out out cooked you that day? Maybe a combo of both. I guess my biggest point was just because you have certified judges in KCBS, and the IBCA does not, shouldn't diminish the quality of the IBCA and the results from it's events. It's still BBQ, it needs to be cooked properly and taste good to win, no matter what sanctioning body or who judges it.
Hale of a Good BBQ...2013-2014 IBCA Third Coast Cooker of the Year...Semi-retired...
User avatar
Okie Sawbones
Outlaw
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:14 pm
Location: Edgewood, TX
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby Okie Sawbones » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:06 pm

'...but to knock the IBCA because it has Joe Q Public judging is just not fair.'

Never knocked IBCA. I support ALL BBQ organizations, be it KCBS, IBCA, PNWBA, FBA, etc. But I am entitled to prefer one over the other. Limitations of the Internet in trying to express yourself. I just question why the IBCA doesn't use CBJs, and I stand behind that.

'I like mine a bit on the spicy side, but I know that in a competition you need to keep it more middle of the road, your box hits a table of older folks, spicy may kill you.'

Again, not true. I am an 'older folk' and I judge food on what the cook is trying to present. If they give me a brisket with a heavy black pepper rub, I know what they're going for. Spice doesn't bother me unless I'm looking for a glass of milk to put the flame out. I don't want roast beef for a brisket entry; I want something that says I'M BRISKET. A rib with a little jalapeno powder kick at the end is delightful. If a cook is going more for the savory side, I appreciate that as well.

This middle of the road is a misconception, just like 'ribs must be candy sweet to win' because that is what judges are looking for. I really appreciate a good tasting rib without all of the sweetness. Same with chicken.

'Personally I don't want a judge to take into consideration the time and effort I spent in making my turn in box...'

You should, since this is part of appearance. I gave a few 6s and 7s last Sunday because folks just tossed their entries into the box, or they tripped on the way to turn in. It takes a lot of effort to turn in a 9 box.

'My point was that certified judges are being told what good BBQ is to an extent...'

Nope. To the contrary, KCBS really pushes for you to put personal preferences aside. They only try to educate judges as to BBQ flaws, and to the rules of the game. They tell you how to discern overcooked meat (among other things), which I personally see more than any other thing in competitions. Fall off of the bone ribs is fine for home cooking, but it is not a standard of KCBS. People know the standards when they come in. Brisket has to pass the tug test, not fall apart when you pick up a slice with the tongs.

To each their own. I've judged PNWBA; I've judged KCBS; I'd be happy to judge IBCA or BCA. I adjust accordingly to the standards of the association.
KCBS - CBJ
PNWBA - CBJ
Jambo Clone, Primo Oval XL, Blaz'n Grills Pellet Stove, Weber 22.5", Lynx SS Grill, The Big Easy
VFW - Life, DAV - Life
User avatar
bruno994
Cowboy
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:52 pm
Location: Buna, Texas
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby bruno994 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:56 pm

'Public Judges' -- As a cooking team, I would not like this. There are eaters and there are judges. Hey Bubba, wanna judge some BBQ? Shore! I'm hungry.
I would hate to put so much time, money, and effort into a competition, to have my food judged by Bubba. Just my two cents. :?


Sorry that I took that comment as a knock on the IBCA...but to say that because Bubba isn't certified, is a knock on at the very least Bubba, and if it's a knock on Bubba, then it's probably a knock or at least a snub on the organization that allows Bubba to judge. I am not knocking the KCBS, just the elitist attitude that only certified judges are worthy of judging BBQ. As Finactic pointed out, some folks should not be writing scores down, but for the most part, IBCA judging is very fair.

This middle of the road is a misconception


I am quite sure I am correct that middle of the road is right on, with some slight variance in different directions, but nothing drastic...your tastes may be different, but middle of the road will keep you up and walking. Savory, salty, with maybe a little tail end will do just fine in Texas, every once in a while sweet might get you a call, just simply because you stood out with something different. In both organizations, I believe cooking the meat to the proper tenderness is the biggest factor in success, with taste right behind it.

'Personally I don't want a judge to take into consideration the time and effort I spent in making my turn in box.

I did a poor job of clarifying this point, I DO want the judge to take into consideration how great my box looks, even here in Texas with just a foil sheet under the meat, I always try and make it look appealing and neat. With the new scoring system, that will be taken into effect and may hurt some until they clean their presentation up. What my point was, I have heard (on other forums that are mainly KCBS) that certain KCBS head judges instruct the judges to take into consideration the time, $ and effort the teams put out and try to not score them too low. Like I said, poor job of clarifying this.
Hale of a Good BBQ...2013-2014 IBCA Third Coast Cooker of the Year...Semi-retired...
User avatar
Swamp Donkeyz BBQ
Outlaw
Posts: 1779
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:26 pm
Location: Huntsville, Tx
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby Swamp Donkeyz BBQ » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:29 pm

I really like the KCBS scoring system. I think it's great that cooks can see exactly where they fell in each meat category, and where they fell in each subcategory.

As far as CBJ's go, I think there are more good judges than bad, just as there are bad apples in just about every hobby you may partake in. I do believe that shows like BBQ Pitmasters promote "BBQ Snobbery" among comp judges. You have these guys on TV telling you what "good BBQ" should and shouldn't be. There's too many noobs, in the judging community, that are getting into the BBQ fad because they saw it on TV, and they're judging off what what the almighty Myron says is "good BBQ"
User avatar
bruno994
Cowboy
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:52 pm
Location: Buna, Texas
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby bruno994 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:54 pm

Great points Swamp, right on the money...
Hale of a Good BBQ...2013-2014 IBCA Third Coast Cooker of the Year...Semi-retired...
User avatar
Okie Sawbones
Outlaw
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:14 pm
Location: Edgewood, TX
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby Okie Sawbones » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:07 pm

Swamp Donkeyz BBQ wrote:I really like the KCBS scoring system. I think it's great that cooks can see exactly where they fell in each meat category, and where they fell in each subcategory.

As far as CBJ's go, I think there are more good judges than bad, just as there are bad apples in just about every hobby you may partake in. I do believe that shows like BBQ Pitmasters promote "BBQ Snobbery" among comp judges. You have these guys on TV telling you what "good BBQ" should and shouldn't be. There's too many noobs, in the judging community, that are getting into the BBQ fad because they saw it on TV, and they're judging off what what the almighty Myron says is "good BBQ"


Agree and disagree. Here's a nice read by Johnny Fuggitt on the changing of BBQ. Like it or not, BBQ is changing. http://firstwefeast.com/eat/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-bbq-in-america-in-2015/ I do bemoan the homogenizations of BBQ regions.

I adapt to change pretty well, but it doesn't mean I have to cook that way at home. I'll take techniques and give them a spin. I've tried hot and fast for brisket, but prefer the low and slow method tweaked to my time and taste -- I cook at 275. I like a hint of sweetness to pork ribs, but not the candied style popping up everywhere.
KCBS - CBJ
PNWBA - CBJ
Jambo Clone, Primo Oval XL, Blaz'n Grills Pellet Stove, Weber 22.5", Lynx SS Grill, The Big Easy
VFW - Life, DAV - Life
User avatar
k.a.m.
Outlaw
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 pm
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby k.a.m. » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:48 am

In my opinion there will always be flaws in BBQ judging it simply cannot be helped due to the vast amount of teams competing. You have a field of say 50 teams in a KCBS cook off and 6 to 8 judges taste those boxes. How is that even remotely fare to the other 54 teams? In an IBCA cook off you will have probably 3 prelim tables of which maybe 8 to 10 judges taste your product they do not get to taste the other boxes. How is that fare to the other 40 teams?
I believe the crossover to this type of judging for Texas Gulf Coast was to lesson the amount of judges needed and reduce ties at the end.
If I have learned anything in my short years of competing is that while most of the time you need to cook decent BBQ at the end of the day luck plays a bigger role in the outcome of an event. Personally I like being judged by the public it opens the field up to a more diverse crowd to taste your turn in at any given day. Training people to know what to look for in BBQ may have worked in years past when folks actually listened to a trained instructor. But now a days I have to ask myself what some of the certified judges have been taught because of their comments on other forums about cooking styles, meat texture and so forth. Then there is the regions of BBQ KCBS is based on a whole different style of cooking than what Texas is accustomed too. Is KCBS correct and Texas wrong? Or is Texas correct and KCBS wrong? Who knows?
I am also a big supporter of judging BBQ should be about the meat and meat only not what surrounds the meat. And while judges will say garnish does not have to play a role in a box for appearance it can be meat only I am going to throw the BS flag on that one every time. People ask me why I do not cook KCBS and the answer is #1 The garnish in boxes while not needed if you do not put it you are going into a gun fight with a knife. #2 The saucing of meats. Comments like more sauce less sauce the judges cannot even agree sometimes.
You want an eye opener on KCBS judging? Join a place like BBQ box turn in critique and read what some of the certified judges say. While sometimes they agree others it is usually very different and these are trained judges that cant agree on the same box.
My point is whether you are a trained and certified judge or someone that just likes to taste BBQ it all boils down to your own preference. Every organization has its flaws just choose one you like and have fun cooking. :D
Always remember slow and steady wins the race.

Image

My Hybrid cooker.
Competition trailer #2.
GRailsback
Cowboy
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Cypress TX.
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby GRailsback » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:12 am

That was well put K.A.M. And I couldn't agree more on the KCBS garnishing of the boxes, so I just don't do those, its that simple.

At the end of the day I try and make sure that I am happy with what I have turned in. Most people on here know if what they have turned in has a reasonable chance of producing a walk or not. If I turn in something that is good quality BBQ, and I don't win, its ok. Would I like to win, sure, but nobody will have had more fun, or a bigger party than I did.
User avatar
Okie Sawbones
Outlaw
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:14 pm
Location: Edgewood, TX
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby Okie Sawbones » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:25 am

The only time I pay attention to a garnish as a judge is if the team turns in a box with illegal garnish -- I've seen endive and red tipped lettuce more than once. I have given 9s for appearance where the box had NO garnish. KCBS makes a point at every judges meeting to state, "This is not a salad contest. Are we clear on that?" So I call BS on the garnish. Are some judges influenced by the garnish? I'm not naïve, I'm sure there are, but that is not what they SHOULD be doing.

I am with y'all 100% on the entries being judged by one table, not all tables. But as you know, it is a physical impossibility. Take Bedford Blues for instance. There were 70 teams competing. We had 11 tables judging, and it took 3.5 hours. It would take 38.5 hours for one table to do the judging. So it is what it is.

KCBS and PNWBA try to be as fair as possible. They assign people to tables. Then they ask how many master judges there are. They spread those around the tables. Then they ask how many newbie judges there are. They spread those around the tables. So every table is going to have one or two newbies, and at least one master judge. Can they spread around personal biases? Of course not. But if a judge is doing their job, biases go out the window. I don't like sweet pork ribs, but I have given a lot of 9s for them, because there were layers of flavor, not just candy.

As far as regions, most judges come from the region where the contest is held, so I don't see where there is any bias here. KCBS and PNWBA don't have any regional standards. In fact, BBQ is losing its regional charm as everything is becoming homogenized. This is happening in the wine world as well, where I used to judge. I hate to see that.
KCBS - CBJ
PNWBA - CBJ
Jambo Clone, Primo Oval XL, Blaz'n Grills Pellet Stove, Weber 22.5", Lynx SS Grill, The Big Easy
VFW - Life, DAV - Life
User avatar
k.a.m.
Outlaw
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 pm
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby k.a.m. » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:52 am

So how would you score an IBCA box knowing what we turn in Okie Sawbones? 90% of the ribs will be by KCBS standard over cooked and falling off the bone. 90% of the briskets will be well past any tug test. You have a dull knife and fork to taste with so as a whole this is what we have trained ourselves to turn in and win with. Could you adapt to our standards when judging? If so I applaud you because there aren't many I have had conversations with on forums that could.
It doesn't make it wrong yet I have heard so many times by KCBS judges that we are doing it all wrong. Even on forums people will say with conviction the only proper rib has to have a nice clean bite. Who set this standard and more importantly by what qualification did they have? I am sure there are a lot of certified judges out there that hold the title because they took a class when in fact they have never spent all night baby sitting a cooker so in my opinion that judge may be book smart but lacks very valuable experience to tell me I lacked fire management on my turn in.
Maybe they should thin the herd a bit or at least make it more of a challenge to hold the title as a certified judge.
Always remember slow and steady wins the race.

Image

My Hybrid cooker.
Competition trailer #2.
User avatar
Okie Sawbones
Outlaw
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:14 pm
Location: Edgewood, TX
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby Okie Sawbones » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:16 pm

Good question, k.a.m. It would be a learning experience for me. But I am flexible. As an example, I HATE overoaked wine, but I had to learn to judge them, putting preferences aside. I like brisket right around the 200-205 range, where there is a little tug. I like ribs with a hint of sweetness. I like pork butt with FLAVOR. I like chicken without a rubber skin. What are IBCA criteria?

This is the judging form:

AROMA – In your opinion, does it smell like barbeque?
COLOR – Overall appearance, appealing to the eye.
TEXTURE – Ask yourself – is it moist or dry, tender or tough
TASTE – How is the smoke taste, the spice taste, the overall Palate appeal of the meat/spice combination.
OVERALL – The final criteria. Overall effect, your total impression.

Aroma -- no problem. Anyone who cooks BBQ at home should know this, especially by the errors they made and learned by over the years.
Color -- no problem. Anyone can see color quality.
Taste -- no problem for an experienced judge. Some folks wouldn't know how to detect fire problems, too much wood, one spice drowning out all the others, etc.
Overall -- no problem. Would I want to take that box home for dinner?
Texture -- this is where the problem comes in. This is where IBCA differs from some other associations IMO. It only asks if it is tender and moist. So there is no 'clean bite on the rib', and no 'tug test' on the brisket, and no 'bite through skin' on chicken, and no 'mush test' on the pork.

For me, IBCA would be a piece of cake. I wouldn't have to worry about the textural components, just whether it is moist and tender. As you know as a cook, you can get meat tender but dry, or you can get meat moist but tough. The art is getting tender, moist meat.

It all boils down to, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." :D
KCBS - CBJ
PNWBA - CBJ
Jambo Clone, Primo Oval XL, Blaz'n Grills Pellet Stove, Weber 22.5", Lynx SS Grill, The Big Easy
VFW - Life, DAV - Life
User avatar
Okie Sawbones
Outlaw
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:14 pm
Location: Edgewood, TX
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby Okie Sawbones » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:26 pm

Oh, BTW, I'm with you 100% on the judging being tougher to get. It was pretty tough to get a certified wine judge qualification. You tasted everything blind. They put flawed wine in the tasting, such as too much acid, too little acid for the sugar, matchstick, brett, VA, oxidation, etc. They gave you 18 wines in order to taste. Then they brought back the wines mixed up, and you had to place them in order. A lot of people failed the test.

I believe they should do the same thing with wine judges. Give a test that includes flaws in BBQ. Weed out the people who don't know their stuff. I would go farther and say all judges should have to spend a weekend with a team, not just master judges. Let them see first hand how much effort goes into a competition.
KCBS - CBJ
PNWBA - CBJ
Jambo Clone, Primo Oval XL, Blaz'n Grills Pellet Stove, Weber 22.5", Lynx SS Grill, The Big Easy
VFW - Life, DAV - Life
User avatar
k.a.m.
Outlaw
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 pm
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby k.a.m. » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:44 pm

Okie Sawbones wrote:Oh, BTW, I'm with you 100% on the judging being tougher to get. It was pretty tough to get a certified wine judge qualification. You tasted everything blind. They put flawed wine in the tasting, such as too much acid, too little acid for the sugar, matchstick, brett, VA, oxidation, etc. They gave you 18 wines in order to taste. Then they brought back the wines mixed up, and you had to place them in order. A lot of people failed the test.

I believe they should do the same thing with wine judges. Give a test that includes flaws in BBQ. Weed out the people who don't know their stuff. I would go farther and say all judges should have to spend a weekend with a team, not just master judges. Let them see first hand how much effort goes into a competition.

I am glad you agree with this. The competition BBQ world needs more folks like this to see that just because you hold a card doesn't mean you know what your judging. Nothing would piss me off more than someone holding a title as a certified judge telling me what they thought was wrong with my BBQ when in fact the best they ever offered was baby back ribs at a back yard bbq with their in-laws.
Always remember slow and steady wins the race.

Image

My Hybrid cooker.
Competition trailer #2.
User avatar
Okie Sawbones
Outlaw
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:14 pm
Location: Edgewood, TX
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby Okie Sawbones » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:47 pm

k.a.m. wrote:
Okie Sawbones wrote:Oh, BTW, I'm with you 100% on the judging being tougher to get. It was pretty tough to get a certified wine judge qualification. You tasted everything blind. They put flawed wine in the tasting, such as too much acid, too little acid for the sugar, matchstick, brett, VA, oxidation, etc. They gave you 18 wines in order to taste. Then they brought back the wines mixed up, and you had to place them in order. A lot of people failed the test.

I believe they should do the same thing with wine judges. Give a test that includes flaws in BBQ. Weed out the people who don't know their stuff. I would go farther and say all judges should have to spend a weekend with a team, not just master judges. Let them see first hand how much effort goes into a competition.

I am glad you agree with this. The competition BBQ world needs more folks like this to see that just because you hold a card doesn't mean you know what your judging. Nothing would piss me off more than someone holding a title as a certified judge telling me what they thought was wrong with my BBQ when in fact the best they ever offered was baby back ribs at a back yard bbq with their in-laws.


Unfortunately it does happen. I do my best to sit next to newbie judges, and after we finish a round, elicit their opinions. They are usually timid at first, but after the day goes on, they almost always warm up and start asking questions. That is the sign of a good judge to be -- ask a lot of questions.

What is your take on 'Celebrity' judges? We had the mayor of Bedford at the table behind us. I don't know the fellow. He might be a heck of a good cook, or he may think McDonald's McRib is BBQ heaven. :shock:
KCBS - CBJ
PNWBA - CBJ
Jambo Clone, Primo Oval XL, Blaz'n Grills Pellet Stove, Weber 22.5", Lynx SS Grill, The Big Easy
VFW - Life, DAV - Life
User avatar
k.a.m.
Outlaw
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 pm
Contact:

Re: New TGCBBQ scoring system

Postby k.a.m. » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Personally the celebrity judges need to stay with what they know. I am sure there are some knowledgeable celebrity's on BBQ but for the most part my experience is they know what restaurants cook and they make poor judges and the teams suffer from it.
Always remember slow and steady wins the race.

Image

My Hybrid cooker.
Competition trailer #2.

Return to “Competition BBQ Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests