Brisket is going on.....

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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby CypertJ » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:40 am

All of the briskets I've ever over cooked fell apart, but I wouldn't call them tough. I think J$ might have it figured out. How long did you let it rest before slicing? You mentioned that you had some issues managing the temp, your fire might not have been hot enough.

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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby Grillatarian » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:54 pm

CypertJ wrote:All of the briskets I've ever over cooked fell apart, but I wouldn't call them tough. I think J$ might have it figured out. How long did you let it rest before slicing? You mentioned that you had some issues managing the temp, your fire might not have been hot enough.

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X2 on the falling apart if over cooked, not tough. Tough is usually under, not over.
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby spacetrucker » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:46 pm

mine came out border line miserable as well...
trimmed all the fat down, started with 11.3 lb packer, trimed 3 lb of fat off.
Cooked at 300 for 4 hours, then wrapped in butcher paper and continued, at this point ice pick penetration of the flat was resistive internal temp was 170 in flat.
cooked for another 1.5 hours (checking temp and tenderness every 20 minutes or so) internal temp was 195 and ice pick insertion was effortless, ah must be done and tender...
on a cookie sheet and into the oven (turned off for holding) let rest for 2.5 hours internal temp 140
color great, smell great, tough to cut even tougher to eat edible but not fork cutting tender like the low and slow briskets I cook. I am open to suggestion, if I try this again my thoughts are to cook even longer to a higher internal temp, however after cooling down the ice pick did have resistance to probing...
I'll watch for replies
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby Lockon » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:08 pm

I let it rest about 2 hours. I let it rest un-wrapped for about 30-45 mins, then separate the point from the flat....cubed the flat for burnt ends and re-wrapped the flat in butcher paper and let that rest about another 1-1.5 hours. I really have no idea of internal temp as I did not use a thermometer. It was dry, and when trying to pull apart with fingers, that was no happening :dont: I am so peaved.

For my temps, at one point I was at about 325, but most times I could only hold about 235-240. That is why I went closer to 11 hours instead of the 6-8 that Bludawg suggests.

BTW this was a 12.22# packer before trim.

Here is a pic of the final product


Image
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby BluDawg » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:49 pm

spacetrucker wrote:mine came out border line miserable as well...
trimmed all the fat down, started with 11.3 lb packer, trimed 3 lb of fat off.
Cooked at 300 for 4 hours, then wrapped in butcher paper and continued, at this point ice pick penetration of the flat was resistive internal temp was 170 in flat.
cooked for another 1.5 hours (checking temp and tenderness every 20 minutes or so) internal temp was 195 and ice pick insertion was effortless, ah must be done and tender...
on a cookie sheet and into the oven (turned off for holding) let rest for 2.5 hours internal temp 140
color great, smell great, tough to cut even tougher to eat edible but not fork cutting tender like the low and slow briskets I cook. I am open to suggestion, if I try this again my thoughts are to cook even longer to a higher internal temp, however after cooling down the ice pick did have resistance to probing...
I'll watch for replies
Are you measuring your cook temp on the grate or from a door thermo.? I measure on the grate 195 It seems low for a H&F cook mine are ususally 205 -215 sounds like you under cooked it just little.
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby BluDawg » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:53 pm

Lockon wrote:I let it rest about 2 hours. I let it rest un-wrapped for about 30-45 mins, then separate the point from the flat....cubed the flat for burnt ends and re-wrapped the flat in butcher paper and let that rest about another 1-1.5 hours. I really have no idea of internal temp as I did not use a thermometer. It was dry, and when trying to pull apart with fingers, that was no happening :dont: I am so peaved.

For my temps, at one point I was at about 325, but most times I could only hold about 235-240. That is why I went closer to 11 hours instead of the 6-8 that Bludawg suggests.

BTW this was a 12.22# packer before trim.

Here is a pic of the final product


Image

You under cooked it: dry and tough is under cooked.
see the difference
Image
Image
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby Grillatarian » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:01 pm

spacetrucker wrote:mine came out border line miserable as well...
trimmed all the fat down, started with 11.3 lb packer, trimed 3 lb of fat off.
Cooked at 300 for 4 hours, then wrapped in butcher paper and continued, at this point ice pick penetration of the flat was resistive internal temp was 170 in flat.
cooked for another 1.5 hours (checking temp and tenderness every 20 minutes or so) internal temp was 195 and ice pick insertion was effortless, ah must be done and tender...
on a cookie sheet and into the oven (turned off for holding) let rest for 2.5 hours internal temp 140
color great, smell great, tough to cut even tougher to eat edible but not fork cutting tender like the low and slow briskets I cook. I am open to suggestion, if I try this again my thoughts are to cook even longer to a higher internal temp, however after cooling down the ice pick did have resistance to probing...
I'll watch for replies


Hearing your results makes me nervous....I was planning my first H/F and butcher paper wrap cook with a 14lb brisket tomorrow A.M., now, not so sure I want to go there. I have been getting great results with the traditional L/S 11- 13 hr style cooking, but am not opposed to trying new things ...
if they work.
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby Lockon » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 pm

Well heck......guess I am back to 19-20 hours all night brisket cooks :angry5:
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby CypertJ » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:40 pm

You just need to get your temp up. 235-240 is still looking at 1.5 hrs/lb cook time.
Don't give up yet, it took a couple of tries to get one to come out right for me but when it did, I was looking for my mama cause I needed to slap her.

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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby BluDawg » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:56 pm

Lockon wrote:Well heck......guess I am back to 19-20 hours all night brisket cooks :angry5:

You said you it never probed tender in the thickest part of the flat. Don't go blaiming your not following instructions on the process failing. Cook temp, Butcher Paper, thermometers, Foil L&S ,H&F are of no consequence because if you don't cook to probe tender you will continue to be disapointed. The probe never lies!!! Once you wap your head around that your cooks will improve.
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby txsmkmstr » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:42 am

spacetrucker wrote:mine came out border line miserable as well...
trimmed all the fat down, started with 11.3 lb packer, trimed 3 lb of fat off.
Cooked at 300 for 4 hours, then wrapped in butcher paper and continued, at this point ice pick penetration of the flat was resistive internal temp was 170 in flat.
cooked for another 1.5 hours (checking temp and tenderness every 20 minutes or so) internal temp was 195 and ice pick insertion was effortless, ah must be done and tender...
on a cookie sheet and into the oven (turned off for holding) let rest for 2.5 hours internal temp 140
color great, smell great, tough to cut even tougher to eat edible but not fork cutting tender like the low and slow briskets I cook. I am open to suggestion, if I try this again my thoughts are to cook even longer to a higher internal temp, however after cooling down the ice pick did have resistance to probing...
I'll watch for replies


I'll jump into the mix... this pretty much mirrored my experience as well. Only differences were a 14 lb. packer and probably cooking 250*-280*. I likely screwed up the butcher paper wrap job too (flaps under) and ended up cooking fat cap down while wrapped. No juices left - bark was "tough to cut" - edible flat but dry - probed 193* in the flat after 14 hours of cooking. The point was wonderful though and I'll make use of the flat somewhere.

Lest I too get called out for not following directions I know some things I'll do different next time. Wrapping procedure and fat cap up to name a couple. After sticking this brisket with a probe more often than a heroin addict I'm questioning the exact location of the "thickest part of the flat". I always figured it was closer to the center of the brisket - now I'm thinking it's closer to the end - I mean the flat does taper toward the point.

Yup... might be back to low and slow for me as well. Why I keep messing with success I simply don't know. On a positive note I did get 1/2" of rain yesterday that knocked 105* down to 87* - that was pretty sweet.
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby spacetrucker » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:54 am

I really really appreciate all the interaction...
this is how.... at least I learn thanks

Are you measuring your cook temp on the grate or from a door thermo.?

My cook temp probe is about 10 inches below the grate, so if anything I will be about 15 to 30 degrees warmer on the grate, I have tested this with a maverick, numerous times, hence my choice of 300 as initial cooking set temp. The picture on the left of my post is my cooker, the stack is at the 3 o'clock position in the middle, and I am cooking above it. The fire pot is in the bottom.
It seems low for a H&F cook mine are ususally 205 -215 sounds like you under cooked it just little.

my thoughts as well, just need some other opinions to help me confirm what I was already thinking....

the worst part is what to do with the mistake :angryfire: after all cant be throwing perfectly good beef away, so I ran a knife through part of the flat, in to the crock pot for tenderizing with cilantro, lime, pepper and rice to enjoy in tortillas later, the rest in the freezer to be tenderized later and used in other dishes like enchiladas topped with home smoked cheese....

I will definitely be trying this again at least once and maybe twice as there are to many people cooking that way so it is a skill I-we as cooks must acquire, my toleration for failure is not good, and immediately following a failed attempt I get feelings of regress(sour grapes for you psych types) but I am also the type that an asswippen :box: only makes me try harder :shock: after the sense of failure has subsided :banghead:

I believe the wrapping has merit, the outside was better than the low and slow cooks I done in the past, really liked that, the dry inside could be cause by me trimming down too much, after all it was 11lbs 4 oz and I remover 3lbs 1 oz of fat, measured just for this purpose, in case of a failure, used a brand name rub as well that I have used before so the only variances in this cook versus known good techniques are: temperature, time, and trimming, in the low and slow I seldom if ever trim, usually at the store if I can bend a brisket that means the fat vein between the flat and point is not prohibit-ly thick so it gets bought and cooked, even taught my little bride this as she buys better briskets than I do most of the time.
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby BluDawg » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:03 pm

Sometimes despite all the goofy dances we do with a raw packer to get the best one we get bam boozeled and get one less than what we though it was. I don't put much stock in The grade because beef is graded between the 4 & 5th rib that mussel group don't get used much so it will have better marbling. A cow still has to walk and that is where the brisket gets used the more it moves the leaner the brisket. This is what I look for over all uniformity of shape from point to tail. Thick tail on the flat min 1", then I bend the brisket backwards with the fat cap down to check the marbling on the Flat. Floppy has fooled me a few times.
this is representative of what I am talking about
Image
The rub has no bearing on moisture of tenderness adding stock & stuff to a wrapped brisket will not make it moist nor will injecting any water based solution. Any meat that requires long cooking has to drive off the moisture( Water) before the fat renders and the collagen breaks down to gelatin it is the gelatin that makes it moist and the breaking down of the collagen that makes it tender. So if your meat is tough or dry it needs to cook longer. Dry and falling apart is over cooked. So you can see that is why you can not rely on internal temp or time(XXX MIN per LB) to determine when that piece of meat is at its peak since no two are ever alike. The PROBE DON"T LIE!
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby spacetrucker » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:17 pm

Ok one last question, then I'll think about all the info for a while...
During the cook session once the internal temp on the brisket hit 195 the ice pick probe was effortless... indication of done, after the brisket set for a couple hours(allowed to sweat for a while) the ice pick probe required more effort to penetrate the flat? any thoughts there.... did the meat cooling(internal at this time was 140) give the indication of being undercooked due to the increased effort after it cooled?
Sorry to be this way but I pick every one of my failures apart so as to hopefully prevent the reoccurrence..

for what its worth, the brisket in the crock pot with rice cilantro lime and black pepper is smellin an tasting might good! and the meat is beginning to tender up after having been rough chopped.
Thanks
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Re: Brisket is going on.....

Postby BluDawg » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:57 pm

spacetrucker wrote:Ok one last question, then I'll think about all the info for a while...
During the cook session once the internal temp on the brisket hit 195 the ice pick probe was effortless... indication of done, after the brisket set for a couple hours(allowed to sweat for a while) the ice pick probe required more effort to penetrate the flat? any thoughts there.... did the meat cooling(internal at this time was 140) give the indication of being undercooked due to the increased effort after it cooled?
Sorry to be this way but I pick every one of my failures apart so as to hopefully prevent the reoccurrence..

for what its worth, the brisket in the crock pot with rice cilantro lime and black pepper is smellin an tasting might good! and the meat is beginning to tender up after having been rough chopped.
Thanks

As your meat cools off shrinkage happens :roll: so there may be a little more resistance as it cools. The best thing I can tell you is stop temping your meat during the cook. Cook to feel, using booth you will assume the feel is correct because the temp says it should be done. I think you may have under cooked it. Also learnin the "Feel" of probe tender is crucial. The best way I know of is; to sit a stick of butter on you counter over night to get soft. In the morning get your probe that you use on your brisket close your eyes and push the probe into the soft butter then pull it out do this 4-5 times. By having your eyes closed your developing a sense of touch. The next time you you cook a brisket position the probe over the thickest part of the Flat close your eyes and check the meat did it feel like the butter? If so your done if not cook it until it does.
*PROBE TENDER>This is the feel that is mimicked by cutting room temperature butter with a hot knife, there should be no drag
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